Saturday, January 3, 2009

Your taxes at work, part II

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b3_1230864719

I hate it when the mass media censors so called "disturbing" videos and photographs of casualties resulting from from military attacks. People who are disturbed by the actions of the army which they support sent by the president they elected should not be allowed to vote...

25 comments:

Anonymous said...

So sad that Hamas caused this to happen to their own people. If only they stopped firing rockets at innocent Israeli civilans, all this could be avoided.

Sergey Solyanik said...

Yeah, right.

If they did, the Palestinians could continue living in their huge concentration camp for the next 60 years, just like the 60 years before.

Evil Hamas!

Omid said...

Shooting rockets to those shameful israelis is the least possible punishment for decades of butchering people all around the world. I believe Hamas fighting for liberty is very noble and appreciable. They chose to fight and die with honor instead of waiting for another 60 years of 'living' under zionist barbarism.

Anonymous said...

How is the Gaza Strip a concentration camp when the Israelis withdrew in 2005?

It's the Jews that were butchered, which was what led to Israel in the first place. Hamas are just trying to finish the job, and have stated that Israel has no right to exist, so yes, they are evil. It's ridiculous that the Israelis have been so restrained with an organization that wants to destroy them.

Omid said...

I never said a word about Jewish people. It is clear that zionist regime is totally different at first place. Every nation had had a pity history. The point is that zionists are using the history (which could be fake or exaggerated anyway) to occupy lands and do massacre every now and then. It is clearly useless to find any excuse for their ugly evil face. The truth and hatred is on the streets just open your eyes. And about "Israel has no right to exist" the point is that who is currently paying the price of the butchering of Jews?! Who butchered them? Where were they butchered? Jerusalem? Hamas did it? Did the pity history happen in Gaza or Europe? Is it OK if some people rush into your house and occupy your country for being under cruelty of some other people? Is it reasonable? Considering all factors and truth, I would say YES, "Israel has no right to exist".

Anonymous said...

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/dershowitz/entry/israel_s_actions_are_lawful

Omid said...

I recommend the link above to everyone! They writer is desperately trying to rationalize the israel crimes and massacres. Any law made by any one, divine or evil, modern or old, decorated with beautiful and ideal names like 'human rights' and 'democracy' that supports these clear crimes is BULLSHIT. BTW, why are they trying to rationalize it anyway...!

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggKOjY_daiM&feature=related

Anonymous said...

ne mogu poniat' reportera,kotorii begaet mezdu ranenimi ine putaetsia okazat' im pomosh, eto otlichaet ludei ot neludei. a chtob vi znali hizballa vedet obstreli iz gusto naselennix raionov spezial'no chtobi bili takie kadri. oni ne lubiat svoi narod.

YI said...

first of all,to sergey solyanik who is worried about his taxes:radical & extreme islamic terrorist organizations are a multi-headed snake (hamas,hizballa,el-qaida,etc.),and fighting this one far from your back yard maybe with the help of your tax-money, may help prevent that same back yard from blowing-up(have you forgotten 9/11 ? they are all with the same ajenda & all just want islam to rull the world & everyone else who doesn't like it- bye-bye).so maybe you are losing your money but preventing some not very nice people knocking at your door & slaughtering you. as for our dear omid - your knowledge of history is somewhat poor & empty slogans cannot amend for lack of knowledge.in any case,this is not the time & place for history-lessons,so we shall stick to the present:for a few reasons the state of israel is now a fact & is going to stay (beleive me).if the palestinians could truelly accept that & try to build their state alongside israel instead of waisting all that energy & all those lives on the false dreams that "hamas" & alike are selling them,they would be much-much better off and the only people with a problem would be the terrorists who have taught themselves only to hate & kill and don't know how to build or do any other usefull things.that's why the palestinians' problems are "hamas" much more than israel.israelies can be stupid,sometimes bad,sometimes unjust, but the majority of them are sane people who want to live in peace and therefor it's possibble (though maybe difficult) to come to an agreement with them,while parading for "hamas" is maybe very nice but will lead them nowhere- and that is very very sad.

BadTux said...

It is interesting to watch Israeli information ops in action. Whenever a blog mentions the situation in Gaza, information ops springs into action. Yes, this is an organized operation, complete with its own bot network for attacking "pro-Palestinian" sites.

As for my opinion on this mess: The few hundred Hamas members involved in firing rockets at Israel are criminals, and I have no problem with Israel doing whatever it takes to arrest them and bring them to justice. I do have a problem with Israel indiscriminately bombing, shelling, and otherwise killing people who had nothing at all to do with the criminal act of firing rockets at Israel. You cannot blame all Palestinians for the acts of a few criminals, any more than you can blame all white Americans for the acts of Jeffrey Dahmer. Yet Israel consistently does so, and then brings up the excuse that "terrorists" (criminals) are hiding behind civilians. Duh. We have a name for that in police work. It's called a HOSTAGE SITUATION. And rule #1 that cops follow when handling a hostage situation is *don't kill the hostages*. But that's in civilization. Israel does not operate under the rules of civilization. Israel operates under their own rules, where it's fine and dandy to blow away the hostages if you get one or two criminals in the process. And then they wonder why people criticize them, when they do such savage things?!

yi said...

badtux has a very simple solution to a not so simple problem.were it so easy to catch criminals & so simple to punish them - there was no crime in the world long ago! your advice is the same as telling a football coath:"all you have to do in order to win this game is score more goals than the other team".thats good advice and very easy to give! the problems between israelis & palestinians are much deeper than that & the situation is very complicated & multi-sided.each side has done mistakes (yes- the israelis too!) & each side bears a percentage of the blame for the situation (as in any human relationships).but!!!!!:the israelis at least have tried to start ammending their wrongdoing & the most prominent examole for that is their withdrowal from the whole gaza strip,hoping the palestinians take that as a basis & first step for them to build their country.but the palestinians, with their hamas leadership,instead of pointing all their efforts to build a prosperous & peaceful state at last,waste all their energy (& millions of american & european aid money)on building missiles,rockets,etc. and preparing for war instead of "building a life" for their children and next generations.isn't that a bigger crime?? they are waisting their childrens' future leading them nowhere!! why aren't they concerned with the fact that they are growing poor,sick,illiterate children who only know the "kuran" & hate,& guns,& bombs.let them say,like the israelis say:"enough!lets leave the past & build a better future".

Sergey Solyanik said...

Israel never withdrew from Gaza.

They withdrew from Gaza internals, but they keep the control of the border, and they blockaded the whole area, so movement of people and all goods (incuding medications, sick, etc) is either outright prohibited, or severely restricted.

Before you condemn Hamas, do a mental experiment.

Suppose YOU are a Palestinian born in Gaza. Your people were kept basically in a concentration camp for the last 60 years. You have no way out. No civil rights. No way to control your future.

What would YOU do?

yi said...

if we follow your mental experiment:i suppose there is a good chance i would join an organization & try to fight for the freedom of my country etc.ok - but now we have reached a different stage:there was a chance of creating a palestinian state,there was diallogue,agreements,things starting to move & get shape -- until hamas got control.please bear the difference between the "non religeous" palestinian liberation movements & on the other hand the extreme radical islamic movements who play according to the intrests of iran etc. & not necesserally according to the needs of the palestinians.another example:in the first half of the 1990s,after the signing of the "oslo aggreements",the process of the palestinian state was going quickly forward in gaza & in the west bank- with self government,police,courts etc.after israeli pm rabin was assassinated,his successor,shimon peres,took office & continued the process.what did the palestinians do? they set- off a huge wave of suicide-bombings (in busses,malls,restaurants etc.) , thus causing israelis to panic & vote for a right wing government & the whole process of the palestinian state was set way back & the relations between the two peoples detiriorated a lot.as i stated before:the situation is a very complex one & has deep roots more than 60 years back.both people have moderate groups & extreme groups (usually religeous).on the israeli side,the extremists are still a minority ,but since hamas & the radical islamic movements seem to be getting the majority of the palstinians - its very difficult to draw a bridge between the two people. now your homework:a mental experiment for you:what would you do if "el-qaida",heavily supported by iran, was your neighbour? maybe even firing rockets at you? i'm not sure you can really imagine that,but did you ever imagine 9/11 ? did you imagine bombs in london,madrid,paris,india,etc. etc. etc. ? bearv in mind who you are dealing with.(please excuse any misspelling - as you probably guessed - it's not my mother-tongue)

Sergey Solyanik said...

Man, you really can do some reading on the subject :-).

Here's a very short summary of what happened in Middle East in the last 60 years.

1967-1993. Secular PLO fights Israel on multiple fronts, mostly using "terrorist" activities, with no success. The combined total losses on Israeli side from all the fighting is less than a single year deaths from the drunk driving. Meanwhile, settlements expand and Palestinians get gradually squeezed out from the territories they once held. Whoever can, leaves the country, but vast majority can not.

1993 Oslo accords is signed. It is not very specific (all the details as in where the border will be, what rights the Palestinian "entity" will have, what will the nature of this "entity" be are TBD). There is no support for it in Israel at all. But PLO can claim a temporary victory so Arafat goes with it.

1993-2001 Oslo accords gradually fall apart. Now that PLO is no longer even the token fighting, there is REALLY no reason why Israel might consider giving up all the land. Settlements expand. Palestinians keep getting squeezed out. The life in the occupied territories continues to deteriorate: (1) the local government really has no control over anything interesting, like exports, investment, monetary or fiscal policy, - the borders and everything that comes across is still owned by Israel - and (2) it is thoroughly incompetent.

2001 An attempt by Clinton organization falls apart principally because Israel is not interested in dealing. Palestinians are offered basically the "status quo": a "state" with no army, no border control, and on a patchwork of disjointed cantons criss-crossed by the roads connecting the settlements (which Palestinians are not allowed to cross, but are allowed to build tunnels under them in a few places).

2001-2008 Intifada. Israeli casualties are still far fewer than a single year toll from drunk driving, but they blow the effect up mostly to scare themselves into being total barbarians - how else do you justify indiscriminant killing of civilians. Palestinian casualties mount (there are more dead Palestinian children under 14 than total deaths on the Israeli side). Finally, they get to the point where only radical Islam offers an answer. The rest we know.

So how will it end? Israel clearly cannot kill all Palestinians - even US where more and more people are coming to Jesus on this issue will not go for this. They cannot get rid of them, and they won't let go of the land that "god gave them". And they don't suffer casualties that are sufficient for them to reevaluate the Bible.

Palestinians obviously cannot win using conventional means. Suicide bombers do not inflict enough casualties even compared to drunk driving, this has been proven over the so there decades now.

However, eventually one of these organization will acquire nuclear weapons - it is not a question of "if", but "when". Eventually (20-30-50 years?) the technology will advance so making a powerful enough weapon will be easy enough.

Then they will probably blow something up. I can only hope that they will go for some Israeli city, and not the US, and if it is in the US then at least it should be in a place which supports Israel (like somewhere in the red states), and not in Seattle :-(.

Note that I am not saying that this is what SHOULD happen, but I am simply making prediction what WILL, if US continues to support Israel the way it does.

yi said...

well,I see you've doen some reading too.(By the way - I haven't done such a lot of reading,it's all part of my life,and I know it from very close).In any case you have brought forth many facts,some of which are not totally accurate.First of all it is wrong to say there was no support in Israel for the Oslo accords.The truth is that the population was devided in its feelings but the majority (lead by the beloved PM Rabin),said:"Lets give it a chance.We have tried the war path,now lets try the peace road."The palestinians themselves flourished in those years (belive me - I've been there on a daily basis & done lots of business with them).Their life began to be normal,hotels were built in Jerusalem & Beth-lehem,country clubs in Ramallah & Nablus,factories,aggriculture,commerse.Even if you look today at the pictures of the war in Gaza - you can see modern tall buildings,shops,better roads etc.OF course,all this is not enough,but it was a first step in a long road in the right direction.The PLO regeme was corrupt & not perfect,but things were moving in the right direction!The Hamas regeme is not motivated by the palestinians' interests but by the interests of their "Big Daddy" Iran & by the interest of global GIHAD.Now,the skeptic Israelis who were not sure about the Oslo accord are pushed over to the side of the fanatics saying:"You see - we gave them self-goverenment & peace and all we get back is terror". My dear friend you are naive & permit me to say you don't grasp the situation in its full capacity:It' simply "us" or "them".Now "them" don't want to be like "us" and that's their right of course.But "them" don't even want "us" to be like "us" and want "us" to be like "them".I really don't know why,and I don't know the roots of the matter,but extreme,fanatic,radical Muslems are not in a "persuite of happiness" or seeking a better,peaceful life,but are living for converting all other people to Islam (meanwhile killing the rest) and then living according to Kuran laws.If you want that for yourself - you are most welcome to join them,but I think there are quite a few people on this planet (including other Muslems,like in Egypt,Saudi-Arabia,Jordan and more)who do not wish to live according to those rules & believe they have better things to do in life than convert to Islam & all those people are "enamies of Allah etc." & have to be gotten read of! It's a war between cultures,don't you see, and in this war the terrorists don't hold back,and bomb NY,London,Paris,Madrid,Mombay and more and more and more.Those are the people who have the Palestinians by their throtes,preventing them from getting forward & improving their situation.Were it not for those fanatic lunatics,causing the crazy fanatics on the Israeli side to gain power also,the more tolerant & sane parties on both sides could have,maybe-maybe,sort things out between them.(like the Saudi initiative or the Geneva initiative). One more small fact:Have you noticed that in the first place,in 1947,the UN resolution stated the should be two countries on this sorry little piece of land:one for the Palestinians & a small "homeland for the Jewish people".(much smaller than today,by the way).The jews accepted that (except for the usual few fanatics) but the Arabs did not,and the rest is a continuous bloodshed. Another philosofical question:Why is it,do you think,that hundreds of thousands of people dying in Africa of sheer hunger or getting killed in all sorts of wars and disputes between the Tutsees and the Shmutsees or whatever do not get such coverage or empathy from the world?

Sergey Solyanik said...

Yi,

You did not answer my question. Before the "fanatic lunatics", there were 60 years of no civil rights, and gradual squeezing of the Palestinians out further in the desert.

There was no progress. The "flourishing" that you talk about is BS - been there, seen that. Checkpoints, constant harrassing everywhere, run-down, delapidated cities, little education, no way out...

Even for Arab "citizens" of Israel the rights are not the same - you can invite your relative in if you're a Jew, not if you're Arab. There is heavy investment in your neighborhood if you're Jew, not if you're Arab.

This country doesn't even have a constitution - for a sole reason that a constitution would have to give all citizens equal rights, and that would give equal rights to Arabs.

Israel is for Jews seems to be exactly the same as "Russia is for Slavs", and "Germany is for Germans". You know where it leads, and you know, deep inside, that you're there, you're past the point of no return, and the only way you haven't crashed yet is because you have successfully fooled US evangelicals in giving you an unconditional support.

But it's a failed strategy. US is crumbling, and you will soon be what Cuba is to the Soviet Empire. And frankly, given what you've proven yourselves to be - the world will shed no tears.

yi said...

sergey,I'm sorry to say you are stuck in the same place,saying the same (not always totally true) things again & again,ignoring some disturbing questions I put to you.I will state & emphasize again:roadblocks & blockades etc. were not always there.All those unpleasant measures + a very ugly wall were put up due to a wave of terror which you prefer to minimize & compare to road accidents,but the people of Israel would rather live without.I state again,and I firmly stand behind my statement:IN THE 90' THE PALESTINIANS WERE GETTING CLOSER STEP BY STEP TO A MUCH BETTER & NORMAL LIFE.Again- I've been there with them day by day,working with them very-very close,and whoever sells you other information is lying to you,or has a selective memory.As I said - it wasn't perfect,it wasn't complete but it was much much much better than what they got with Hamas and it could have improved more & more had terror not interrupted.The problem of the Arab citizens of Israel is a different story which I will not refer to now because it is a wide & deep subject by itself & deserves otonomic discussion.I agree,however,that there is a problem & Israeli governments along the years made many mistakes and not improved enough,but I'll leave that discussion for another time.What dissapoints me is that you don't respond at all to the points I've made about the more global problem (that I think cannot be separated from the local problem) of world "Islamization".It seems to me you comfortably "sweep it under the rug" & ignore it because it's much easier & more popular to spit fire at Israel at the moment than to face a real HUGE problem that the so called "western world" is getting a taste of,& some hints of what will is waiting for it in the future.

Sergey Solyanik said...

Ok, I will respond to the world "islamization" "problem".

I don't see Islam as any different than any other religion. Christianity has killed many people in the past, and is continuing to kill people in the present. For example, Iraq war would not have happened without US right-wing Christians as a major -- by far the biggest -- driver. Ann Coulter: "Let's invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity." It is entirely uncontroversial that Bush has seen this war as a religious crusade. It has claimed 1M lives at this point. There is nothing in the recent history that Islamic fanatics had done that comes even close to the body count. Not by many orders of magnitude.

Going on to Judaism. The whole Middle Eastern debacle results directly from (a) God gave this land to Jews, and (b) Jews are the chosen people nonsense (and so they apparently feel that it is OK to kill 400 Palestinian children as a retribution for - how many? 5? deaths from rocket attacks). If you compare civilian casualties that resulted from a single Gaza offensive to the entire toll inflicted by the "terrorists" over the many years, you will see that whatever Islamic fanatics has done pales by comparison.

So I am not afraid of Islam. They do not appear to have territorial ambitions. They do not influence my way of living. If I don't f*ck with them, they tend to leave me alone. I cannot say the same about Judeo-Christian fanatics which control my country, my country's foreign policy, and make a lot of people in the world fear and hate me by proxy. These people I worry about a lot more.

yi said...

oh,now we are getting somewhere.There are a few points I agree with you about & they are blended with a few point on which we disagree.1)If you say the Moslem terrorists have nothing to do with you,how do you explain the attack of 9/11? I will send you soon (if you wish)some reading material of what they write & what they say (in Europe - not the Middle-east)- maybe that will get you worried a little.2)The war in Iraq is a different thing & I too do not support it,and I don't think the reason for it was fighting terror,but other reasons were given.3)I agree with you that the problem is some of the Jews beleive they were promised the land of Israel by God etc. & personally,though a Jew,I do not beleive in God - therefore that promis is meaningless to me.But I know for sure,(through History,Archeology etc.)my anccestors DID live here until thrown out by the Romans.But that's a long story.In short,as I said before,the Nations of the world,through the UN decided there should be 2 states on this little piece of land,and I think (problematic as it is)- it's the only sollution.So peope like me are the majority in Israel & accept this solution & it's our problem to deal with those in Israel who feel differently.A large part of the Palestinians also understood that from practical reasons they should go along with this sollution & what I described happened in the 90's was the begining of putting that sollution to work.When Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip,we beleived the majority of the Palestinians will go forward to build their state,but as I said they wasted their energy on other things,& this is the outcome.4)I am sorry to say,you are unable to grasp the meaning of living under terror (obviously it's good for you that you can't - but I think you are missing a few points).You cannot measure terror impact only by counting casualties.Your attitude says:"I am willing to live here in Seattle with terrorists/criminals/MAFIA killing 50/100/500/750 (?) citizens on the streets every year.that's ok.When it will be 5000/10000/20000 (?) that will annoy me & maybe I'll do something about it".Well,some other people arround the world don't think terror is unacceptible.PERIOD.According to your way of thinking Britain shouldn't have invaded Germany in WW 2 - the Germans didn't invade Britain.So what if they bombed it a little? Why did the US have to go on war with Japan? So what if the Japs attacked some remote American base? Did it affect the life of someone in Idaho ?

Sergey Solyanik said...

9/11 - I don't need to explain attacks. Bin Laden actually said many times why he attacks the US. First, it's because we prompt (evil) dictatorships in the Middle East. Second, because we're propping (evil) Israel.

For years and years and years and years I've been taught to listen to my customers. And I do. And in this case, the story is very plausible. It just makes perfect sense.

Now, with the evil dictatorships in the Middle East, I get some bang for my buck. They give me oil. So I am willing to consider the trade-offs.

What exactly do I get from Israel? I pay them money. Lots of it. In fact, I could go a long way towards having a universal health care in this freaking country if I didn't spend paying Israel directly, and then on top of this paying its enemies in Jordan and Egypt to lay off of it.

In exchange for this money, I get (1) soon to be pretty universal hatred of billions of people. (2) Israel has this unholy alliance with the right-wing f*cktards in this country who screw people on so many levels in addition to the idiotic foreign policy. (3) I get into wars to protect Israel. If you count only 10% of the Iraq war to be due to Israel (it's much more in reality, see #2 above), that would be $300B. (4) I get 9/11.

What do I REALLY get out of this "aliance"? Friendship is supposed to be both ways, and there's no other side to this "bargain".

Also, just to reiterate - ISRAEL DID NOT GET OUT OF GAZA. They always controlled the borders, and always restricted pretty much everything going in and out.

yi said...

to Sergey:ok,now we're back to the beginning & to your concern about your tax money.Basically you are right of-course:every citizen has a right to know what is done with his taxes & to protest when he thinks that money is not used in the way he thinks it should.But that's the way Democracy goes - accordinng to the majority & of-course not every one of the millions of different opinions can be treated the same.The facts are,for instanse,that many American administrations in the last 40 years (aproximately)have supported Israel (& other countries)to some extent from a range of reasons.Maybe all those Presidents & many secretaries & congressmen & senators are all stupid & have much narrower vision & sight than people like you,but I tend to beleive that's not the case.According to the same logic,maybe other Americans are angry with their country for letting-in tens of thousands of immigrants (like yourself) annually,thus taking their jobs and causing unimployment etc.On the other hand,maybe those other Americans know their country has traditionally been obliged to help others (being such a mighty & rich power),countries & individuals,and although very Capitalistic,not always having the necessity of "a good bargain" in mind but also the generosity of the richest willing to share their wealth with the less fortunate.Some people are helped by the USA by being let into it,and others are being helped by the USA in their countries,considered to be friends & allies of the USA for different reasons.Also I beleive that not very many Americans wish to have their life governed by the moods & wishes of Bin-Laden (Jolly fellow as he may be)& rather choose their way of life democratically,even though risking offending same Bin-Laden.

Sergey Solyanik said...

Mearsheimer and Walt produced a great analysis of the root causes of US support for Israel - and believe me, they have nothing to do with democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy

Basically, if there is a tiny minority of people who really care - a LOT - about some weird thing, and the rest of the people do not care so much one way or another, these tiny majority can invest relatively little amount of money - but very pointedly - to extract disproportional return on their investment from the majority.

Say, you're willing to invest a thousand dollars in a scam that extracts 10 cents from many people, each. I don't care so much about 10 cents, to it's relatively easy to get me to pay them. But if there are hundreds of millions of people, the return on your investment is going to be enormous.

This is basically how Israeli lobbying works, as does every other lobbying organization (NRA, AARP, ...). What is unique about Israeli lobby is that it benefits a foreign country, and it is really detrimental to US national interests (which is to say, if there's a better example of treason, I am not familiar with it).

yi said...

Sergey.I don't think your example of the scam where 10c by millions of people bring the person a lot of money etc. This method is known & clear but I fail to see the connection.You acknowledge the existence of lobbies but claim that this specific lobby is bad as it is opposed to US interests.But as I humbly stated in my last reply,maybe YOU (or others) fail to see the relevance to US interests,but that does not mean they do not exist.Long before the US,other powerful nations seeked allies & strongholds sometimes far away & not always the benefits are large or clear or immidiate.It was not just one specific president but many so...yoy know... maybe not all of them were such fools... They seem to think the US needs a foot in Europe,Middle-east (Marines were in Lebanon in the past- nothing to do with Israel),Turkey,The far-east and so forth.I think that saying it's all because of the Pro-Israeli Lobby - is a bit shallow.In 1941-1944 the US set out the "lend-lease" program (spending about $700B!!! - in todays numbers).Maybe many American citizens dissaproved,but the plan went on (and the Marshall plan after that).Even the Soviet-Union (remember?) was a benefactor of the plan & although it was almost an enemy! Maybe,who knows,it helped the USSR survive and win the war & maybe without it it wouldn't have survived & no Sergey.....

Sergey Solyanik said...

(1) Of course we need a foothold in Middle East - but a foothold - not a thorn in its side. When one gets a foothold, the expectation is to gain something positive. What did we - ever - get out of Israel? What do we - ever - expect to get out of it - other than the "second coming of Christ" (when, incidentally, Jews will either - mostly - die or convert, according to Israel's "supporters" in the US)?

(2) The benefits of Lend-lease were quite obvious, my friend. Far, far, far more obvious than the benefit of our one-sided "friendship" with Israel.